Plain language Big Book

Post by Skeezix LaRocca
Supposedly a new, plain language Big Book coming out..I'm not sure if it
is the new 5th edition, or something in addition to it... From what I
have heard people will have a choice.
I'm not sure about the reaction in most groups, but on the Facebook
recovery groups many hard liners are spitting mad..In my Zoom Meeting or
face to face group that I attend, the subject never comes up.
How about your meetings ?

I've only heard it's in the works. No one in my real life AA circle has
mentioned anything about it one way or the other.

I'm of two minds about it myself. I guess it would depend on how much it
deviates from the original, and whether or not I think the changes are
well done and an improvement or not. As with any author, Bill's writings
have their own "voice" and I don't think that should be changed.

--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

badgolferman

2024-04-22 22:51:56 UTC

Post by Skeezix LaRocca
Supposedly a new, plain language Big Book coming out..I'm not sure if
it is the new 5th edition, or something in addition to it... From
what I have heard people will have a choice.
I'm not sure about the reaction in most groups, but on the Facebook
recovery groups many hard liners are spitting mad..In my Zoom Meeting
or face to face group that I attend, the subject never comes up.
How about your meetings ?

The plain language Big Book will eventually take over as the official
Big Book 5-10 years down the road. I tried to warn you guys about this
last year when it started coming up at the Area level. Our delegate
sent out questionnaires to the groups asking for their input on what we
thought about it.

You can rest assured it will be politically and socially correct,
notably gender neutral, and light on the God stuff. This is what the
progressives and atheists have always wanted and now they got it. I
only hope there will be pockets of groups who still adhere to the "real
Big Book" and its message so some people can get and stay sober.

Sharx335

2024-04-22 23:01:14 UTC

Post by Skeezix LaRocca
Supposedly a new, plain language Big Book coming out..I'm not sure if
it is the new 5th edition, or something in addition to it... From
what I have heard people will have a choice.
I'm not sure about the reaction in most groups, but on the Facebook
recovery groups many hard liners are spitting mad..In my Zoom Meeting
or face to face group that I attend, the subject never comes up.
How about your meetings ?

The plain language Big Book will eventually take over as the official
Big Book 5-10 years down the road. I tried to warn you guys about this
last year when it started coming up at the Area level. Our delegate
sent out questionnaires to the groups asking for their input on what we
thought about it.
You can rest assured it will be politically and socially correct,
notably gender neutral, and light on the God stuff. This is what the
progressives and atheists have always wanted and now they got it. I
only hope there will be pockets of groups who still adhere to the "real
Big Book" and its message so some people can get and stay sober.

What about the pronouns? Gotta have those pronouns, in brackets, after
any person's name mentioned.

Pluted Pup

2024-04-23 19:11:52 UTC

The details make all the difference.

I'm told by group service in an after meeting discussion
that the plan is for a dual version book, like with the original
text on the left page and the revised text on the
right page so that both versions are always in the field of
vision. That erased any objections I may have had and
most participants in the discussion said it made all the
difference that having a dual language version is crucial.

badgolferman

2024-04-23 19:27:05 UTC

The details make all the difference.
I'm told by group service in an after meeting discussion
that the plan is for a dual version book, like with the original
text on the left page and the revised text on the
right page so that both versions are always in the field of
vision. That erased any objections I may have had and
most participants in the discussion said it made all the
difference that having a dual language version is crucial.

I have not heard this. If it was true, it would make for a thick book
unless they removed the personal stories.

Pluted Pup

2024-04-23 19:35:46 UTC

The details make all the difference.
I'm told by group service in an after meeting discussion
that the plan is for a dual version book, like with the original
text on the left page and the revised text on the
right page so that both versions are always in the field of
vision. That erased any objections I may have had and
most participants in the discussion said it made all the
difference that having a dual language version is crucial.

I have not heard this. If it was true, it would make for a thick book
unless they removed the personal stories.

General Service *often* exclude crucial details!

Like when they query the meetings about making revisions
of texts but they only disclose the proposed text and
don't include the original to make a comparison.

badgolferman

2024-04-23 20:07:31 UTC

Post by Skeezix LaRocca
Supposedly a new, plain language Big Book coming out..I'm not

sure if it > > is the new 5th edition, or something in addition to
it... From what I > > have heard people will have a choice.

Post by Skeezix LaRocca
I'm not sure about the reaction in most groups, but on the

Facebook > > recovery groups many hard liners are spitting mad..In
my Zoom Meeting or > > face to face group that I attend, the
subject never comes up. > >

Post by Skeezix LaRocca
How about your meetings ?

The details make all the difference.
I'm told by group service in an after meeting discussion
that the plan is for a dual version book, like with the original
text on the left page and the revised text on the
right page so that both versions are always in the field of
vision. That erased any objections I may have had and
most participants in the discussion said it made all the
difference that having a dual language version is crucial.

I have not heard this. If it was true, it would make for a thick
book unless they removed the personal stories.

General Service often exclude crucial details!
Like when they query the meetings about making revisions
of texts but they only disclose the proposed text and
don't include the original to make a comparison.

I still don't think what you say is what will happen. They wouldn't
call it the Plain Language Big Book if it also included the original
version. And if that is indeed what they are doing it would have been
made clear from the very beginning in order to quell any dissent. When
I first heard about this as ADCM a couple years ago it was never
brought up in Area meetings that there would be a dual language book
such as this.

--
"What's right is what's left if you do everything wrong." ~ Robin
Williams

Pluted Pup

2024-04-23 20:37:42 UTC

Post by Skeezix LaRocca
Supposedly a new, plain language Big Book coming out..I'm not

sure if it > > is the new 5th edition, or something in addition to
it... From what I > > have heard people will have a choice.

Post by Skeezix LaRocca
I'm not sure about the reaction in most groups, but on the

Facebook > > recovery groups many hard liners are spitting mad..In
my Zoom Meeting or > > face to face group that I attend, the
subject never comes up. > >

Post by Skeezix LaRocca
How about your meetings ?

The details make all the difference.
I'm told by group service in an after meeting discussion
that the plan is for a dual version book, like with the original
text on the left page and the revised text on the
right page so that both versions are always in the field of
vision. That erased any objections I may have had and
most participants in the discussion said it made all the
difference that having a dual language version is crucial.

I have not heard this. If it was true, it would make for a thick
book unless they removed the personal stories.

I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting
with the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.

If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be
re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

Mark Warner

2024-04-23 21:46:36 UTC

I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting
with the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be
re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand
basket. They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined
with the 3rd edition, which had come out in 1976.

--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

badgolferman

2024-04-23 22:25:17 UTC

I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting
with the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be
re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand
basket. They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined
with the 3rd edition, which had come out in 1976.

The only change between 2nd and 3rd edition was the personal stories and
maybe some punctuation corrections in the main text. They are completely
rewriting the whole main text in the “plain language” version so it will be
ruined!

Mark Warner

2024-04-23 23:23:27 UTC

Post by Pluted Pup
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be
re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand
basket. They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined
with the 3rd edition, which had come out in 1976.

Hell, I'm old enough to remember the old fucks bitching about the 12x12
"watering down" the Steps.

--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

badgolferman

2024-04-24 11:28:55 UTC

Post by Mark Warner
Hell, I'm old enough to remember the old fucks bitching about the
12x12 "watering down" the Steps.

I wouldn't say the 12x12 watered down the Steps, but it certainly beat
around the bush by making the whole thing conceptual rather than
instructive.

Bob

2024-04-25 16:18:08 UTC

Post by Mark Warner
Hell, I'm old enough to remember the old fucks bitching about the
12x12 "watering down" the Steps.

I wouldn't say the 12x12 watered down the Steps, but it certainly beat
around the bush by making the whole thing conceptual rather than
instructive.

Given you've treated your revered Big Book as conceptual rather instructive
in your own "realistic" deference to group authority pertaining to sex on
BB page 69, why would beating "around the bush" bother you?

--
Using Free PhoNews on Android

Sharx335

2024-04-25 17:48:01 UTC

Post by Mark Warner
Hell, I'm old enough to remember the old fucks bitching about the
12x12 "watering down" the Steps.

I wouldn't say the 12x12 watered down the Steps, but it certainly beat
around the bush by making the whole thing conceptual rather than
instructive.

"beating around the bush" could be construed as a deviant sexual practice.

badgolferman

2024-04-25 17:57:58 UTC

Post by Sharx335

Post by Mark Warner
Hell, I'm old enough to remember the old fucks bitching about
the 12x12 "watering down" the Steps.

I wouldn't say the 12x12 watered down the Steps, but it certainly
beat around the bush by making the whole thing conceptual rather
than instructive.

Given you've treated your revered Big Book as conceptual rather
instructive in your own "realistic" deference to group authority
pertaining to sex on BB page 69, why would beating "around the
bush" bother you?

"beating around the bush" could be construed as a deviant sexual practice.

"Beating around the bush" likely is considered a normal practice in the
Outback considering it's bush country down under.

--
"I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what
I am saying." ~ Oscar Wilde

Bob

2024-04-25 20:35:42 UTC

Post by Sharx335

Post by Mark Warner
Hell, I'm old enough to remember the old fucks bitching about
the 12x12 "watering down" the Steps.

I wouldn't say the 12x12 watered down the Steps, but it certainly
beat around the bush by making the whole thing conceptual rather
than instructive.

Given you've treated your revered Big Book as conceptual rather
instructive in your own "realistic" deference to group authority
pertaining to sex on BB page 69, why would beating "around the
bush" bother you?

"beating around the bush" could be construed as a deviant sexual practice.

"Beating around the bush" likely is considered a normal practice in the
Outback considering it's bush country down under.
--
"I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what
I am saying." ~ Oscar Wilde

Moving to the outback certainly didn't rectify my cognitive dissonance. Are
you really trusting that mere digression to the outback will successfully
obfuscate yours?

--
Using Free PhoNews on Android

Dexter

2024-04-26 13:25:48 UTC

Post by Mark Warner
Hell, I'm old enough to remember the old fucks bitching about the
12x12 "watering down" the Steps.

I wouldn't say the 12x12 watered down the Steps, but it certainly beat
around the bush by making the whole thing conceptual rather than
instructive.

-------------------------------------

Thanks for the chuckle. That analogy didn't immediately come to mind
as I was reading this.

Pluted Pup

2024-04-27 20:02:06 UTC

Post by Mark Warner
Hell, I'm old enough to remember the old fucks bitching about the
12x12 "watering down" the Steps.

I wouldn't say the 12x12 watered down the Steps, but it certainly beat
around the bush by making the whole thing conceptual rather than
instructive.

The 12 and 12 might be what it says it is,
an addition to, rather than a replacement of,
the big book.

Skeezix LaRocca

2024-04-24 12:59:15 UTC

I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting
with the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be
re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand
basket. They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined
with the 3rd edition, which had come out in 1976.

Word has it the first 164 pages will not be changed

--
We all do better when we all do better.

Paul Wellstone

Mark Warner

2024-04-24 13:26:05 UTC

Post by Skeezix LaRocca

Post by Pluted Pup
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be
re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand
basket. They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined
with the 3rd edition, which had come out in 1976.

Word has it the first 164 pages will not be changed

So the "plain language" would only be reflected in the stories? If
that's the case, then it's really nothing new.

--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

badgolferman

2024-04-24 13:30:58 UTC

Post by Skeezix LaRocca

I still don't think what you say is what will happen. They
wouldn't call it the Plain Language Big Book if it also
included the original version. And if that is indeed what
they are doing it would have been made clear from the very
beginning in order to quell any dissent. When I first heard
about this as ADCM a couple years ago it was never brought up
in Area meetings that there would be a dual language book
such as this.

I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting
with the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be
re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand
basket. They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been
ruined with the 3rd edition, which had come out in 1976.

The only change between 2nd and 3rd edition was the personal
stories and maybe some punctuation corrections in the main text.
They are completely rewriting the whole main text in the “plain
language” version so it will be ruined!

Word has it the first 164 pages will not be changed

I think we're talking about two different things here. There will be a
5th Edition Big Book and there will be a plain language Big Book.

The Fifth Edition Big Book will have the front section untouched and
have new stories. The plain language Big Book will have a rewritten
front section and the new stories. Of course there will be new
Forwards for both as well and maybe new Appendicies.

Pluted Pup

2024-04-25 01:22:44 UTC

Post by Skeezix LaRocca

I still don't think what you say is what will happen. They
wouldn't call it the Plain Language Big Book if it also
included the original version. And if that is indeed what
they are doing it would have been made clear from the very
beginning in order to quell any dissent. When I first heard
about this as ADCM a couple years ago it was never brought up
in Area meetings that there would be a dual language book
such as this.

I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting
with the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be
re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand
basket. They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been
ruined with the 3rd edition, which had come out in 1976.

The only change between 2nd and 3rd edition was the personal
stories and maybe some punctuation corrections in the main text.
They are completely rewriting the whole main text in the "plain
language" version so it will be ruined!

Word has it the first 164 pages will not be changed

I think we're talking about two different things here. There will be a
5th Edition Big Book and there will be a plain language Big Book.
The Fifth Edition Big Book will have the front section untouched and
have new stories. The plain language Big Book will have a rewritten
front section and the new stories. Of course there will be new
Forwards for both as well and maybe new Appendicies.

I remember from a GSR meeting after the meeting about
the proposal to have a big book rewritten to make it
more "inclusive": this meant making the 164 pages
"gender-neutral". It was defeated.

As I pointed out there are private market big books
that do this like something called the EZ Big Book,
but gender activists do not care about that.

About the claim that the Big Book stories don't have
enough queer-trans stories the Grapevine has some
stories like that, but again queer activists do
not care about promoting the Grapevine but are
only interested in the attention seeking behavior
of demanding the Big Book be rewritten.

It was the same meeting when discussing changing
the AA Preamble from "Men and Women" to "People".
The given reasons for doing so were stupid (to "welcome
the non-binary") but that didn't make it a bad proposal,
which passed.

Ted H

2024-04-24 13:52:39 UTC

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 17:46:36 -0400,

I still don't think what you say is what will happen. They
wouldn't call it the Plain Language Big Book if it also
included the original version. And if that is indeed what
they are doing it would have been made clear from the very
beginning in order to quell any dissent. When I first heard
about this as ADCM a couple years ago it was never brought up
in Area meetings that there would be a dual language book
such as this.

I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting with
the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be re-printed
free of interference by Modernizers.

Well, that's so for the U.S. On the other hand, copyright on the
first edition has been enforced in other countries, such as Mexico
and Germany. A German fellow I knew was bankrupted by AA Inc.

Post by Mark Warner
When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a
hand basket. They were still bitching about how the Big Book
had been ruined with the 3rd edition, which had come out in
1976.

Yeah, same old story. Nothing to see here, move along.

--
Ted H.

Pluted Pup

2024-04-27 20:18:21 UTC

Post by Ted H
On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 17:46:36 -0400,

I still don't think what you say is what will happen. They
wouldn't call it the Plain Language Big Book if it also
included the original version. And if that is indeed what
they are doing it would have been made clear from the very
beginning in order to quell any dissent. When I first heard
about this as ADCM a couple years ago it was never brought up
in Area meetings that there would be a dual language book
such as this.

I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting with
the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be re-printed
free of interference by Modernizers.

Well, that's so for the U.S. On the other hand, copyright on the
first edition has been enforced in other countries, such as Mexico
and Germany. A German fellow I knew was bankrupted by AA Inc.

Details are needed to put this in context: when was this,
recently or many years ago? Was this a complete reprinting
of an otherwise public domain first edition or was it an
edited version? If the German inserted an additional fact
in there, say that moderate beer drinking at October Fest
is actually good for you, then the reprint would be a fraud
to distribute the book claiming it as the Big Book, and
a libel on Alcoholics Anonymous.

Yeah, same old story. Nothing to see here, move along.

Yeah, same old story, with the same old moral: "I once heard of a
guy that was dismissive about something new and then later
he changed his mind, therefore skepticism is wrong and
you should always believe everything new is better".

Pluted Pup

2024-04-27 20:23:14 UTC

Post by Ted H
On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 17:46:36 -0400,

I still don't think what you say is what will happen. They
wouldn't call it the Plain Language Big Book if it also
included the original version. And if that is indeed what
they are doing it would have been made clear from the very
beginning in order to quell any dissent. When I first heard
about this as ADCM a couple years ago it was never brought up
in Area meetings that there would be a dual language book
such as this.

I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting with
the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be re-printed
free of interference by Modernizers.

Well, that's so for the U.S. On the other hand, copyright on the
first edition has been enforced in other countries, such as Mexico
and Germany. A German fellow I knew was bankrupted by AA Inc.

Now it occurs to me that a Translation itself is copyrighted
and I would guess the German language version is copyrighted
by AA. I don't know whether making a new translation would
passGerman or Mexican law.

Yeah, same old story. Nothing to see here, move along.

Ted H

2024-04-28 22:20:26 UTC

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:18:21 -0700,

Post by Ted H
On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 17:46:36 -0400,

Post by Pluted Pup
I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting
with the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first
edition of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be
re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

Well, that's so for the U.S. On the other hand, copyright on
the first edition has been enforced in other countries, such
as Mexico and Germany. A German fellow I knew was bankrupted
by AA Inc.

Details are needed to put this in context: when was this,
recently or many years ago? Was this a complete reprinting of
an otherwise public domain first edition or was it an edited
version? If the German inserted an additional fact in there,
say that moderate beer drinking at October Fest is actually
good for you, then the reprint would be a fraud to distribute
the book claiming it as the Big Book, and a libel on Alcoholics
Anonymous.

It's been some years. You can find more details here...

https://aamo.info/bb/j41d/bbs_matthiasm.html

This site has a lot more similar info...

https://silkworth.net/alcoholics-anonymous/spirituality-versus-legalism-in-alcoholics-anonymous-by-charlie-bishop-jr/

--
Ted H.

Pluted Pup

2024-04-29 09:22:29 UTC

Post by Ted H
On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:18:21 -0700,

Post by Ted H
On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 17:46:36 -0400,

Well, that's so for the U.S. On the other hand, copyright on
the first edition has been enforced in other countries, such
as Mexico and Germany. A German fellow I knew was bankrupted
by AA Inc.

Details are needed to put this in context: when was this,
recently or many years ago? Was this a complete reprinting of
an otherwise public domain first edition or was it an edited
version? If the German inserted an additional fact in there,
say that moderate beer drinking at October Fest is actually
good for you, then the reprint would be a fraud to distribute
the book claiming it as the Big Book, and a libel on Alcoholics
Anonymous.

It's been some years. You can find more details here...
https://aamo.info/bb/j41d/bbs_matthiasm.html

Some context has been added with an article date
of 2005.

A lengthy pleading apologia for what he did but
it didn't say what he did or was accused of. Where
in the article does he say that reprinting a public
domain reprinting of the first edition resulted in
legal action by AA?

He mentions that the German translation replaced
the word "spirituality" with "mentality" and "psychology".
What does that mean here, did he change the wording
of a copyrighted translation and then reprint it?
Did he take an older translation and then reprinted
it while making the claim that it's AA approved because
it was at one time AA approved? Are we supposed to
guess at what he did and what AA did?

"When I ran out of money for my defense against the
multiple lawsuits from AA", what lawsuits, he
never details what he's talking about. This
vagueness reminds me of Hiccum or Ted.

"one civil lawsuit from AA Germany and one from AA USA
was still pending. They claimed hundreds of thousands
of dollars compensation for alleged losses in sales,
because they claimed giving away big books in many
languages for free was unfair competition and a threat
to the financial interest of their business."
That still doesn't say what he did. Did he pirate
copyrighted books or did he distribute public
domain reprints, he doesn't say.

Post by Ted H
This site has a lot more similar info...
https://silkworth.net/alcoholics-anonymous/spirituality-versus-legalism-in-alcoholics-anonymous-by-charlie-bishop-jr/

"The history of corporate AA´s legal actions is lengthy.
One isamazed that the Fellowship-at-large knows little
or nothing about this." And this article isn't informing
us either.

But good news in the article! The second edition is
also public domain.

It mentions *one* American case of first edition public domain
reprints byIWS, again without details.

"and began receiving harassing legal letters from AAWS."
But what was the content of those letters and were
they significant.

"Finally, in 1995, IWS and AAWS met and worked out a
settlement." What talk is this about a settlement if
there wasno legal action? "IWS would stop printing
in Spanish", well? Was the Spanish translation in
the public domain, because it's implied that it was not.

"IWS would submit all future reprints before printing
to AAWS for review."

What was the context here, why was there a settlement at
all if were only talking about public domain reprints.

"Shortly thereafter, IWS dissolved."

Then it gets to the case that the other article was
from. New non-AA German translations were printed of
the first edition and were distributed for free by the
thousands, with no problems.

Only when he gets to printing and distributing
non-German and non-English translation of the
big book does he get into civil and criminal
trouble under AAWS initiative, and what's
more they singled out an individual out of many. Or
that's what the article says happened, but it nowhere
mentions what the actual legal issues are. Were
those non-German and non-English editions legal
just like the German versions, or what? Are
we supposed to guess what happened because the
article doesn't say?

More missing context:

"In July 1994, [AAWS approved] Central Mexico sued the
Section Mexicana for publishing A.A. literature."
"One Section Mexicana trusted servant, Javier G., was
convicted in criminal court of violating copyright
laws and sentenced to one year in prison. AAWS was a
legal party to that criminal proceeding." Again,
what was the story, what AA literature and what was the
manner it was being supposedly illegal to publish.
Was it revised editions being presented as official
AA literature? Were death threats involved?
Does the article writer know and chose not to include
it in his polemic to keep us guessing?

Then the article only now discloses some actual
information, concerning AA censoring book offerings
on Ebay: "The words "Alcoholics Anonymous, A.A.," are
federally registered trademarks owned by A.A.W.S. They
are intellectual property of Alcoholics Anonymous.
In a letter from the law firm representing AAWS to a
person who objected to having her eBay auction listing
removed, it stated "We represent A.A.W.S. with respect to
trademark and copyright matters. We requested that your
particular listing be removed because of the use of either,
or both, ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS or AA in the title of the
item. We requested removal because the use of those
marks in the title suggests that AAWS sponsors, approves,
etc., the item you listed. The item listed is not
approved AAWS material." Now that is patently false,
it implies that writing an anti-AA book is illegal
if AA or Alcoholics Anonymous is in the title!
Such a statement is legally actionable. Hopefully
the crooked legal firm was sued by AAWS for malpractice.
Why keep the name of the legal firm secret? If they
are cheating one client they'll cheat another.

"I reprinted The Washingtonian book of 1842 in 1992".

What book is that? I can't find it at:

https://search.worldcat.org/search?q=kw%3AWashingtonian+AND+au%3Abishop

If he wants to sell the book then don't
keep us in the dark about it's title.

It reminds me about Six Nights With the Washingtonians
by T.S. Arthur from 1842 which is a hardcore drunkalog
book that says nothing about the Washingtonians if I recall
correctly. Great book, but it sounds like he's
talking about something else.

So there I conclude I find no rebuttal to the claim
that the public domain status of the first and second
editions of the big book is a great fortune to all.
If AA were to go bad we would still have the first
two editions as property of the fellowship and
the public to reprint at will.

Ted H

2024-04-29 12:03:06 UTC

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 02:22:29 -0700,

Post by Ted H
On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:18:21 -0700,

Post by Pluted Pup
I only heard about this by word of mouth at the
meeting with the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first
edition of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and
can be re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

Well, that's so for the U.S. On the other hand, copyright
on the first edition has been enforced in other countries,
such as Mexico and Germany. A German fellow I knew was
bankrupted by AA Inc.

Details are needed to put this in context: when was this,
recently or many years ago? Was this a complete reprinting
of an otherwise public domain first edition or was it an
edited version? If the German inserted an additional fact in
there, say that moderate beer drinking at October Fest is
actually good for you, then the reprint would be a fraud to
distribute the book claiming it as the Big Book, and a libel
on Alcoholics Anonymous.

It's been some years. You can find more details here...
https://aamo.info/bb/j41d/bbs_matthiasm.html

Some context has been added with an article date of 2005.

[big snip]

So there I conclude I find no rebuttal to the claim that the
public domain status of the first and second editions of the
big book is a great fortune to all. If AA were to go bad we
would still have the first two editions as property of the
fellowship and the public to reprint at will.

Okay, if you say so.

--
Ted H.

Pluted Pup

2024-04-30 04:50:55 UTC

Post by Ted H
On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 02:22:29 -0700,

Post by Ted H
On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:18:21 -0700,

Post by Pluted Pup
I only heard about this by word of mouth at the
meeting with the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first
edition of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and
can be re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

Well, that's so for the U.S. On the other hand, copyright
on the first edition has been enforced in other countries,
such as Mexico and Germany. A German fellow I knew was
bankrupted by AA Inc.

Details are needed to put this in context: when was this,
recently or many years ago? Was this a complete reprinting
of an otherwise public domain first edition or was it an
edited version? If the German inserted an additional fact in
there, say that moderate beer drinking at October Fest is
actually good for you, then the reprint would be a fraud to
distribute the book claiming it as the Big Book, and a libel
on Alcoholics Anonymous.

It's been some years. You can find more details here...
https://aamo.info/bb/j41d/bbs_matthiasm.html

Some context has been added with an article date of 2005.

[big snip]

Okay, if you say so.

In each case the public domain reprints went fine and it
is only when subsequently reprinting copyrighted AA stuff
that AAWS wenton the legal attack: that's the gist of
the two articles that conflated the two situations into
one.

I'm there's stuff to criticize AAWS about so there
should be no need to make up stuff.

Ted H

2024-04-30 13:34:06 UTC

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 21:50:55 -0700,

Post by Ted H
On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 02:22:29 -0700,
[big snip]

Okay, if you say so.

In each case the public domain reprints went fine and it is
only when subsequently reprinting copyrighted AA stuff that
AAWS wenton the legal attack: that's the gist of the two
articles that conflated the two situations into one.
I'm there's stuff to criticize AAWS about so there should be no
need to make up stuff.

It's been many years, but I looked at this (and other punitive
actions by AA Inc) very closely. At the time I was completely
convinced that Matthew had been inappropriately punished, so there
must be some shortcomings in the account(s) I pointed to. And no,
I'm not going back to dig into the history. In any case, I've
probably gotten rid of most (if not all) of the voluminous records
I used to have.

--
Ted H.

Socrates

2024-04-29 19:39:14 UTC

Post by Ted H
On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:18:21 -0700,

Post by Ted H
On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 17:46:36 -0400,

Well, that's so for the U.S. On the other hand, copyright on
the first edition has been enforced in other countries, such
as Mexico and Germany. A German fellow I knew was bankrupted
by AA Inc.

Details are needed to put this in context: when was this,
recently or many years ago? Was this a complete reprinting of
an otherwise public domain first edition or was it an edited
version? If the German inserted an additional fact in there,
say that moderate beer drinking at October Fest is actually
good for you, then the reprint would be a fraud to distribute
the book claiming it as the Big Book, and a libel on Alcoholics
Anonymous.

It's been some years. You can find more details here...
https://aamo.info/bb/j41d/bbs_matthiasm.html

Some context has been added with an article date
of 2005.
A lengthy pleading apologia for what he did but
it didn't say what he did or was accused of. Where
in the article does he say that reprinting a public
domain reprinting of the first edition resulted in
legal action by AA?
He mentions that the German translation replaced
the word "spirituality" with "mentality" and "psychology".
What does that mean here, did he change the wording
of a copyrighted translation and then reprint it?
Did he take an older translation and then reprinted
it while making the claim that it's AA approved because
it was at one time AA approved? Are we supposed to
guess at what he did and what AA did?
"When I ran out of money for my defense against the
multiple lawsuits from AA", what lawsuits, he
never details what he's talking about. This
vagueness reminds me of Hiccum or Ted.
"one civil lawsuit from AA Germany and one from AA USA
was still pending. They claimed hundreds of thousands
of dollars compensation for alleged losses in sales,
because they claimed giving away big books in many
languages for free was unfair competition and a threat
to the financial interest of their business."
That still doesn't say what he did. Did he pirate
copyrighted books or did he distribute public
domain reprints, he doesn't say.

Post by Ted H
This site has a lot more similar info...
https://silkworth.net/alcoholics-anonymous/spirituality-versus-legalism-in-alcoholics-anonymous-by-charlie-bishop-jr/

"The history of corporate AA´s legal actions is lengthy.
One isamazed that the Fellowship-at-large knows little
or nothing about this." And this article isn't informing
us either.
But good news in the article! The second edition is
also public domain.
It mentions *one* American case of first edition public domain
reprints byIWS, again without details.
"and began receiving harassing legal letters from AAWS."
But what was the content of those letters and were
they significant.
"Finally, in 1995, IWS and AAWS met and worked out a
settlement." What talk is this about a settlement if
there wasno legal action? "IWS would stop printing
in Spanish", well? Was the Spanish translation in
the public domain, because it's implied that it was not.
"IWS would submit all future reprints before printing
to AAWS for review."
What was the context here, why was there a settlement at
all if were only talking about public domain reprints.
"Shortly thereafter, IWS dissolved."
Then it gets to the case that the other article was
from. New non-AA German translations were printed of
the first edition and were distributed for free by the
thousands, with no problems.
Only when he gets to printing and distributing
non-German and non-English translation of the
big book does he get into civil and criminal
trouble under AAWS initiative, and what's
more they singled out an individual out of many. Or
that's what the article says happened, but it nowhere
mentions what the actual legal issues are. Were
those non-German and non-English editions legal
just like the German versions, or what? Are
we supposed to guess what happened because the
article doesn't say?
"In July 1994, [AAWS approved] Central Mexico sued the
Section Mexicana for publishing A.A. literature."
"One Section Mexicana trusted servant, Javier G., was
convicted in criminal court of violating copyright
laws and sentenced to one year in prison. AAWS was a
legal party to that criminal proceeding." Again,
what was the story, what AA literature and what was the
manner it was being supposedly illegal to publish.
Was it revised editions being presented as official
AA literature? Were death threats involved?
Does the article writer know and chose not to include
it in his polemic to keep us guessing?
Then the article only now discloses some actual
information, concerning AA censoring book offerings
on Ebay: "The words "Alcoholics Anonymous, A.A.," are
federally registered trademarks owned by A.A.W.S. They
are intellectual property of Alcoholics Anonymous.
In a letter from the law firm representing AAWS to a
person who objected to having her eBay auction listing
removed, it stated "We represent A.A.W.S. with respect to
trademark and copyright matters. We requested that your
particular listing be removed because of the use of either,
or both, ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS or AA in the title of the
item. We requested removal because the use of those
marks in the title suggests that AAWS sponsors, approves,
etc., the item you listed. The item listed is not
approved AAWS material." Now that is patently false,
it implies that writing an anti-AA book is illegal
if AA or Alcoholics Anonymous is in the title!
Such a statement is legally actionable. Hopefully
the crooked legal firm was sued by AAWS for malpractice.
Why keep the name of the legal firm secret? If they
are cheating one client they'll cheat another.
"I reprinted The Washingtonian book of 1842 in 1992".
https://search.worldcat.org/search?q=kw%3AWashingtonian+AND+au%3Abishop
If he wants to sell the book then don't
keep us in the dark about it's title.
It reminds me about Six Nights With the Washingtonians
by T.S. Arthur from 1842 which is a hardcore drunkalog
book that says nothing about the Washingtonians if I recall
correctly. Great book, but it sounds like he's
talking about something else.
So there I conclude I find no rebuttal to the claim
that the public domain status of the first and second
editions of the big book is a great fortune to all.
If AA were to go bad we would still have the first
two editions as property of the fellowship and
the public to reprint at will.

Loading Image...

https://postimg.cc/MfQmnK30

Pluted Pup

2024-04-30 04:40:15 UTC

Post by Pluted Pup
Then the article only now discloses some actual
information, concerning AA censoring book offerings
on Ebay: "The words "Alcoholics Anonymous, A.A.," are
federally registered trademarks owned by A.A.W.S. They
are intellectual property of Alcoholics Anonymous.
In a letter from the law firm representing AAWS to a
person who objected to having her eBay auction listing
removed, it stated "We represent A.A.W.S. with respect to
trademark and copyright matters. We requested that your
particular listing be removed because of the use of either,
or both, ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS or AA in the title of the
item. We requested removal because the use of those
marks in the title suggests that AAWS sponsors, approves,
etc., the item you listed. The item listed is not
approved AAWS material." Now that is patently false,
it implies that writing an anti-AA book is illegal
if AA or Alcoholics Anonymous is in the title!
Such a statement is legally actionable. Hopefully
the crooked legal firm was sued by AAWS for malpractice.
Why keep the name of the legal firm secret? If they
are cheating one client they'll cheat another.

And there I made a misleading and flippant comment.
The context of the article seemed to have something
to do with an Ebay Category called "Alcoholics
Anonymous" which I know nothing about. But the
accusatory article implied that if that or AA
is in title of a book in any category it was
targeted by AAWS for a takedown.

Dexter

2024-04-26 13:21:08 UTC

I only heard about this by word of mouth at the meeting
with the GSR. It's right to be skeptical.
If AA goes bad, it is a great fortune that the first edition
of the Big Book is in the Public Domain and can be
re-printed free of interference by Modernizers.

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand basket.
They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined with the 3rd
edition, which had come out in 1976.

-------------------------------------

And the show goes on. The only thing that changes is the
cast of characters.

Mark Warner

2024-04-26 20:28:52 UTC

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand basket.
They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined with the 3rd
edition, which had come out in 1976.

-------------------------------------
And the show goes on. The only thing that changes is the
cast of characters.

I'm actually more aligned with Mike than most would expect, but I think
he exaggerates shit greatly. If what he describes is typical in his
area, then the oldsters there have let the fellowship down. Grouchy old
fucks with time and track record are supposed to defend the Traditions
and keep the young hotshots grounded. If that's not happening, then
they've failed.

--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

badgolferman

2024-04-26 23:49:11 UTC

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand basket.
They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined with the 3rd
edition, which had come out in 1976.

-------------------------------------
And the show goes on. The only thing that changes is the
cast of characters.

Traditions? What’s that? Around here the only group which has a Tradition
meeting was my old group which I dropped out of last month. We would
discuss the Tradition monthly. No one around here knows about the
Traditions. It’s all about the chips and how much time you have.

You may think I exaggerate, but I’m much more tuned in to General Service
than the rest of you and can see what’s coming down the pike. Don’t forget
that I live in Virginia which is now a blue state due to the massive
influence and population of Northern Virginia. Those people have taken over
the politics of the state and pushed their social agendas into AA. It’s not
about unity and our common bond anymore, it’s about creating uniqueness and
celebrating our differences.

Mark Warner

2024-04-27 00:51:30 UTC

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand basket.
They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined with the 3rd
edition, which had come out in 1976.

-------------------------------------
And the show goes on. The only thing that changes is the
cast of characters.

Traditions? What’s that? Around here the only group which has a Tradition
meeting was my old group which I dropped out of last month. We would
discuss the Tradition monthly. No one around here knows about the
Traditions. It’s all about the chips and how much time you have.
You may think I exaggerate, but I’m much more tuned in to General Service
than the rest of you and can see what’s coming down the pike. Don’t forget
that I live in Virginia which is now a blue state due to the massive
influence and population of Northern Virginia. Those people have taken over
the politics of the state and pushed their social agendas into AA. It’s not
about unity and our common bond anymore, it’s about creating uniqueness and
celebrating our differences.

I live in a college town with tons of east and west coasters coming and
going, some of whom think they need to tell us what we're doing wrong.
Us grouchy old fucks have no problem setting them straight when they get
carried away. Sometimes you have to step on some toes instead of
stepping away and whining.

--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

badgolferman

2024-04-27 01:41:35 UTC

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand basket.
They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined with the 3rd
edition, which had come out in 1976.

-------------------------------------
And the show goes on. The only thing that changes is the
cast of characters.

Traditions? Whatâs that? Around here the only group which has a Tradition
meeting was my old group which I dropped out of last month. We would
discuss the Tradition monthly. No one around here knows about the
Traditions. Itâs all about the chips and how much time you have.
You may think I exaggerate, but Iâm much more tuned in to General Service
than the rest of you and can see whatâs coming down the pike. Donât forget
that I live in Virginia which is now a blue state due to the massive
influence and population of Northern Virginia. Those people have taken over
the politics of the state and pushed their social agendas into AA. Itâs not
about unity and our common bond anymore, itâs about creating uniqueness and
celebrating our differences.

I don’t think you understand the scope of the problem. This is much larger
than just a few people coming into a meeting and pushing their woke agenda
on us. This is endemic to the entire Virginia Area Committee (Area
Assembly) and their committees. This institution is dominated by the people
from Northern Virginia and a few from Richmond. They control the agenda and
all the committee chairmanships. Even when someone steps up to the mic to
disagree with them, they are shouted down or accused of being racist,
homophobic, etc. It’s the classic liberal tactic of demonizing your
opponent and attacking them en masse.

There’s not much one or two oldtimers can do by invoking the Traditions,
especially if they’re old white straight men.

Mark Warner

2024-04-27 02:08:10 UTC

Post by badgolferman
I don’t think you understand the scope of the problem. This is much larger
than just a few people coming into a meeting and pushing their woke agenda
on us. This is endemic to the entire Virginia Area Committee (Area
Assembly) and their committees. This institution is dominated by the people
from Northern Virginia and a few from Richmond. They control the agenda and
all the committee chairmanships. Even when someone steps up to the mic to
disagree with them, they are shouted down or accused of being racist,
homophobic, etc. It’s the classic liberal tactic of demonizing your
opponent and attacking them en masse.
There’s not much one or two oldtimers can do by invoking the Traditions,
especially if they’re old white straight men.

I've never given much of a shit about all the formal service structure
stuff. People who get into that have always had one kind of agenda or
another.

I keep my involvement at the group and local AA community level. What
you describe going on at your Area confabs wouldn't fly here at the
group or local AA community level. There are any number of us who would
make sure of that.

--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

Sharx335

2024-04-27 06:31:37 UTC

I donât think you understand the scope of the problem. This is much
larger
than just a few people coming into a meeting and pushing their woke agenda
on us. This is endemic to the entire Virginia Area Committee (Area
Assembly) and their committees. This institution is dominated by the people
from Northern Virginia and a few from Richmond. They control the agenda and
all the committee chairmanships. Even when someone steps up to the mic to
disagree with them, they are shouted down or accused of being racist,
homophobic, etc. Itâs the classic liberal tactic of demonizing your
opponent and attacking them en masse.
Thereâs not much one or two oldtimers can do by invoking the
Traditions,
especially if theyâre old white straight men.

I've never given much of a shit about all the formal service structure
stuff. People who get into that have always had one kind of agenda or
another.
I keep my involvement at the group and local AA community level. What
you describe going on at your Area confabs wouldn't fly here at the
group or local AA community level. There are any number of us who would
make sure of that.

But, Mark, you are in mid-Indiana?? I suggest that the situation, say,
in Indianapolis is a lot "bluer" than in mid-state.

badgolferman

2024-04-27 12:01:12 UTC

Post by Mark Warner
I've never given much of a shit about all the formal service structure
stuff. People who get into that have always had one kind of agenda or
another.

Yes, well the Area level is where AA “group conscience” is born and taken
by delegates to the General Service Conference in New York. This is where
the decisions to change the 12x12, Big Book, Preamble, create pamphlets to
tranqs, and a myriad of other homosexual agenda items have come from. I’ve
seen gay flags flying in these meetings. They have completely dominated
this level of AA politics, which ultimately filters down to your local
group.

Post by Mark Warner
I keep my involvement at the group and local AA community level. What
you describe going on at your Area confabs wouldn't fly here at the
group or local AA community level. There are any number of us who would
make sure of that.

It won’t be long before this stuff becomes the new norm. Even your group
will be taken over eventually by the woke folk.

Sharx335

2024-04-27 17:30:44 UTC

Post by Mark Warner
I've never given much of a shit about all the formal service structure
stuff. People who get into that have always had one kind of agenda or
another.

It won’t be long before this stuff becomes the new norm. Even your group
will be taken over eventually by the woke folk.

Shouldn't any GAY OR NON-Gay flags at AA meetings an ANY level. If there
are any flags installed by the owner or manager of the meeting premises,
then I'd hope that an INFORMED group conscience would come into play as
to handle the matter. At the very least, the offending flag could be
covered up for the duration of the meeting.

Mark Warner

2024-04-28 00:38:04 UTC

It won’t be long before this stuff becomes the new norm. Even your group
will be taken over eventually by the woke folk.

Not as long as I'm involved in it. And you know why? Because my years of
service and length of sobriety have given me some influence and gained
the respect of many -- or dare I say even most. It's rare that I have to
put my foot down, but when I do it nearly always carries the day.

What you describe is some kind of top down, hierarchical structure that
I don't recognize. Around here the groups feed into the district which
feeds into the area and eventually to NY. As long as the groups stay
strong and stick to our primary purpose, the politicians at the Area and
in NY can play their games. We'll continue doing what we do.

--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

Pluted Pup

2024-04-28 19:44:30 UTC

It wonâEURTMt be long before this stuff becomes the new norm. Even your group
will be taken over eventually by the woke folk.

You say that Bleeding Deacons like you can always
stop other Bleeding Deacons who are "woke"?

I put more trust in the Fellowship.

Mark Warner

2024-04-28 23:37:17 UTC

It won't be long before this stuff becomes the new norm. Even your group
will be taken over eventually by the woke folk.

You say that Bleeding Deacons like you can always
stop other Bleeding Deacons who are "woke"?
I put more trust in the Fellowship.

As do I in nearly all cases. But there's a place for those of us who are
obliged to keep AA /AA/.

JME. YMMV.

--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

Bob

2024-04-29 00:19:40 UTC

It won't be long before this stuff becomes the new norm. Even your group
will be taken over eventually by the woke folk.

You say that Bleeding Deacons like you can always
stop other Bleeding Deacons who are "woke"?
I put more trust in the Fellowship.

As do I in nearly all cases. But there's a place for those of us who are
obliged to keep AA /AA/.
JME. YMMV.
--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

Watching righteous fights for the rights to distinguish between correlation
and causation seems like being as close to eternity as I'll ever get! 🥱

--
Using Free PhoNews on Android

Bob

2024-04-27 04:04:31 UTC

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand basket.
They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined with the 3rd
edition, which had come out in 1976.

-------------------------------------
And the show goes on. The only thing that changes is the
cast of characters.

I don’t think you understand the scope of the problem. This is much larger
than just a few people coming into a meeting and pushing their woke agenda
on us. This is endemic to the entire Virginia Area Committee (Area
Assembly) and their committees. This institution is dominated by the people
from Northern Virginia and a few from Richmond. They control the agenda and
all the committee chairmanships. Even when someone steps up to the mic to
disagree with them, they are shouted down or accused of being racist,
homophobic, etc. It’s the classic liberal tactic of demonizing your
opponent and attacking them en masse.
There’s not much one or two oldtimers can do by invoking the Traditions,
especially if they’re old white straight men.

Looks like you need to invite Mark's God to fill the vacancy in your
Tradition Two! 🙄

--
Using Free PhoNews on Android

Sharx335

2024-04-27 06:29:45 UTC

When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a hand basket.
They were still bitching about how the Big Book had been ruined with the 3rd
edition, which had come out in 1976.

-------------------------------------
And the show goes on. The only thing that changes is the
cast of characters.

I don’t think you understand the scope of the problem. This is much larger
than just a few people coming into a meeting and pushing their woke agenda
on us. This is endemic to the entire Virginia Area Committee (Area
Assembly) and their committees. This institution is dominated by the people
from Northern Virginia and a few from Richmond. They control the agenda and
all the committee chairmanships. Even when someone steps up to the mic to
disagree with them, they are shouted down or accused of being racist,
homophobic, etc. It’s the classic liberal tactic of demonizing your
opponent and attacking them en masse.
There’s not much one or two oldtimers can do by invoking the Traditions,
especially if they’re old white straight men.

Meanwhile, what Bill Maher said about Canada (and being a Canadian for
all of my 78 years, I can vouch for it), quote: > Apr 15, 2024 — “At its
worst, Canada is what American voters think happens when there's no one
putting a check on extreme wokeness,” Maher said.

All thanks to our puerile boy Prime Minister and his naive acolytes.

Dexter

2024-04-29 02:14:42 UTC

Post by Mark Warner
When I got to AA in '89, I was told it was going to hell in a
hand basket. They were still bitching about how the Big Book had
been ruined with the 3rd edition, which had come out in 1976.

-------------------------------------
And the show goes on. The only thing that changes is the
cast of characters.

I'm actually more aligned with Mike than most would expect, but I
think he exaggerates shit greatly. If what he describes is typical in
his area, then the oldsters there have let the fellowship down.
Grouchy old fucks with time and track record are supposed to defend
the Traditions and keep the young hotshots grounded. If that's not
happening, then they've failed.

Traditions? Whatâs that? Around here the only group which has a
Tradition meeting was my old group which I dropped out of last month.
We would discuss the Tradition monthly. No one around here knows about
the Traditions. Itâs all about the chips and how much time you have.
You may think I exaggerate, but Iâm much more tuned in to General
Service than the rest of you and can see whatâs coming down the pike.
Donât forget that I live in Virginia which is now a blue state due to
the massive influence and population of Northern Virginia. Those people
have taken over the politics of the state and pushed their social
agendas into AA. Itâs not about unity and our common bond anymore,
itâs about creating uniqueness and celebrating our differences.

I don’t think you understand the scope of the problem. This is much larger
than just a few people coming into a meeting and pushing their woke agenda
on us. This is endemic to the entire Virginia Area Committee (Area
Assembly) and their committees. This institution is dominated by the people
from Northern Virginia and a few from Richmond. They control the agenda and
all the committee chairmanships. Even when someone steps up to the mic to
disagree with them, they are shouted down or accused of being racist,
homophobic, etc. It’s the classic liberal tactic of demonizing your
opponent and attacking them en masse.
There’s not much one or two oldtimers can do by invoking the Traditions,
especially if they’re old white straight men.

Meanwhile, what Bill Maher said about Canada (and being a Canadian for all of
my 78 years, I can vouch for it), quote: > Apr 15, 2024 — “At its worst,
Canada is what American voters think happens when there's no one putting a
check on extreme wokeness,” Maher said.
All thanks to our puerile boy Prime Minister and his naive acolytes.

-------------------------------------

What an interesting thread this has been. I'm at a loss for words.

Dexter

2024-04-26 13:17:56 UTC

Supposedly a new, plain language Big Book coming out..I'm not sure if it is
the new 5th edition, or something in addition to it... From what I have heard
people will have a choice.
I'm not sure about the reaction in most groups, but on the Facebook recovery
groups many hard liners are spitting mad..In my Zoom Meeting or face to face
group that I attend, the subject never comes up.
How about your meetings ?

-------------------------------------

This brings to mind the debates about another popular book.
Let me see... I can't immediately call to mind which book it was,
but it seems to me that over the course of time it caused quite
a bit of consternation and dismay amongst the interested parties.

The sky didn't collapse upon the world but that damned
chicken is still squawking loud as ever.

Sharx335

2024-04-26 16:45:09 UTC